The tangible impact of AI has arrived, from data center booms to hiring freezes, and higher education is squarely in its path. In this episode, Jarrett Smith, Scott Rhodes, and Jeff Kallay dig into what AI means for the value and relevance of a college degree. Along the way they challenge some popular narratives: that every student is an enthusiastic AI adopter and that the AI job loss story is as dire as the headlines suggest. The conversation lands on a hopeful note, with concrete ideas for how institutions can defend and even strengthen the value of what they offer.
Key Takeaways
- Students Are More Skeptical Than You Think: Far from cheating their way through school, many students, including computer science and engineering majors, view AI as a threat to learning, creativity, and their own humanity.
- Gas on the ROI Fire: There’s no strong evidence AI is dissuading students from college altogether, but it has intensified existing doubts about tuition pricing, degree relevance, and speed to career, pushing students to reconsider where they enroll, how much they’ll pay, and how long they’ll stay.
- Rigor Is the New Currency: Elite institutions are thriving because they project rigor, transformative experiences, and confidence. Schools that prove their students can think, create, and solve problems have a story AI can’t undercut.
Episode Highlights
- [00:13] Setting the table: AI’s tangible impact finally hits higher ed.
- [01:40] Skeptics, not cheaters: why students are warier of AI than the headlines suggest.
- [02:28] The normalization speed run: from cheating panic to everyday study tool in a single year.
- [06:38] The creator generation: a generational theory for why Gen Z sees AI as a false prophet.
- [08:35] Gas on the fire: how AI amplifies long-simmering doubts about ROI and degree relevance.
- [10:52] The polish problem: why a perfect job application now raises eyebrows.
- [13:03] Blue books and big questions: rethinking majors and what a degree should certify.
- [16:41] The layoff narrative: separating real AI displacement from corporate cover.
- [21:07] Where to steer the ship: rigor, outcomes, and putting AI 101 in the core curriculum.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- The Death of the University Degree: Carl Hendrick’s Substack essay on AI, cognitive surrender, and what a degree certifies in 2026.
- Great Jobs, Great Lives: The Gallup-Purdue Index: The landmark study showing that what students do in college matters more than where they go.
- How AI Killed a 133-Year-Old Princeton Tradition: Rose Horowitch’s piece in The Atlantic on Princeton ending unproctored exams.
Transcript
Jarrett Smith (00:04):
Well everyone, welcome to the enrollment brief. I’m Jared Smith and as always joined by my colleagues Jeff Kallay and Scott Rhodes welcome guys.
Scott Rhodes (00:12):
Thanks Jared.
Jarrett Smith (00:13):
Good to see you. So I’ve got the topic today. And so I’ll just briefly set the table. I think over the last year it seems that the tangible impact of AI has started to set in across many different areas of our world thinking of data centers and layoffs and finance and tech. And of course in our little corner of the world higher ed questions about whether or not students’ grades can be trusted in a world with ChatGPT and other tools. And more recently, students booing speakers at commencement when they appear to be evangelizing AI. So today I was hoping we could talk about AI and specifically what we think it means for the value and relevance of the degrees that colleges and universities offer and perhaps wrap up on some thoughts of what we think this school should do in response to it. But for my first question to you guys is when you think back over the last year about what really stands out to you at this intersection of AI and higher ed, what are the things that come to mind most for you?
(01:35):
What’s top of mind for you in this moment right now?
Jeff Kallay (01:40):
I’m glad I’m 63.
Jarrett Smith (01:44):
Fair response.
Jeff Kallay (01:48):
And my career is behind me and I’m not freaked out. I talk to a lot of college students and I am not shocked at how AI skeptical they are on so many ways in either trust or humanity and are not fans. I think so many people think like every college student is using AI and is cheating and I don’t think that’s the case. So I think they’re a bit more skeptical than we’re giving them credit.
Jarrett Smith (02:26):
Scott, what about you?
Scott Rhodes (02:28):
Yeah, I’d say how fast it normalized. I mean, a year ago everybody was screaming and yelling, “Hey, this is cheating. They’re cheating.” Now it’s like, “This is how students study. This is how they communicate. This is how they apply for jobs.” I mean, that was crazy. It was like overnight that changed. I guess another surprising piece I would say is I feel like AI is helping the elite schools because I think people see them as that their RI is still worth it graduating from those elite schools. And so more and more people are willing to pay more and more to go to those elite schools. And then you also see larger institutions I think are also doing better because of AI.
Jarrett Smith (03:14):
Interesting. I think for me, as it relates to higher ed, I don’t know if there’s anything I found super surprising, but watching schools, how long it’s taken schools to really grapple with this idea of academic integrity and to implement policies around that. I think just kind of timely where we are, Princeton adjusting their famous policy I think has been one. But it doesn’t surprise me given the complexity of even the average small college, but just kind of watching it unfold has been a little bit hard to watch. So Jeff, I want to hear a little bit more about what you’re hearing on college campuses. I mean, I know you’re constantly around the country talking to students and you always just have a really good pulse on what the conversation on campus is. What are you hearing? What are they saying?
Jeff Kallay (04:16):
I would say in this last year, I’ve been intentional in conversations with ambassadors and tour guides. If they’re walking me somewhere or we’re on a lull on a tour, if it’s a tour with just me or when I’m at STEM focused schools like I was recently, most of them I think fall into that third, right? The report, a third of Gen Z use it regularly and then a third report it makes them angry. I think the majority of them, and these are like computer science majors, engineering majors. They’re really apprehensive or scared. I’ve heard everything from… And it’s not so much just about impacting them getting a job in the workplace. It’s really bigger conversations. A threat to humanity, a threat to learning, a threat to their humanity and their hard work and creativity. And so I’m really kind of shocked by it, which is why I’ve just been consistently asking them.
(05:40):
And I mean, I’ve heard everything from don’t be nice to AI.
Scott Rhodes (05:46):
Humanizing it.
Jeff Kallay (05:48):
Humanizing it. And that was from two computer science majors. So I think it’s a little deer in headlights.
Jarrett Smith (06:01):
So basically reacting like the rest of us. Because I think I can relate to being someone who is a daily user of AI and some of the benefits of my own work are undeniable in terms of some of certain types of output. And at the same time being very upset with what AI seems to be taking away and the broader societal impact and an agency questions around what is creativity and what is the value of what teams bring to the table and where do people play a role in all of that? And so very conflicted.
Jeff Kallay (06:38):
Let me add, Jared, I think that if we remember in Howen Strauss Generational Speak or Neil Strauss the Fourth Turning, along with generational personalities, idolists, reactive, civic and adaptive, there’s also these archetypes in a turning. And idolists, the baby boomers are prophet. Gen X is nomad. Millennials are, what do we call them? Oh, heroes. But at Gen Z, Neil Hau calls the creator generation and has this notion that they’re going to create music and film and TV about the pandemic, about the chaos. And so I have to wonder if this is coming from a group that is very generative, generative, whatever we’re doing, that creates creativity and content and wants to and sees AI as a false prophet or lacks the soul to create art. So I have to wonder if that’s in it too.
Jarrett Smith (07:54):
That’s a really interesting thought, Jeff. Scott, one question that I’ve had in my mind is whether concerns over AI are actively dissuading students from pursuing a college degree. And I think have you, in your work with either ECHO clients or maybe any survey data you’ve come across, any primary research, have you found any evidence that that is seen anything that is directly provoking students to maybe forego college? What’s the point in a world of AI? Have you come across anything like that?
Scott Rhodes (08:35):
No, not yet. I mean, there’s no strong evidence that AI itself is causing large students altogether. But I think what’s happening and it’s a little bit more nuanced than that and frankly more important is that existing skepticism around ROI, because there was all these questions lingering out there for a while before this all came about, like ROI, tuition pricing, degree relevance, speed to career. Everybody wants to finish fast. Alternative pathways. Students are looking at community colleges more than ever, accelerated programs. And all this was going on well before AI. And I just think it threw gas on that fire. And I think the strongness evidence that we have today points to students reconsidering which institution to attend, how much are they willing to pay and how long are they willing to stay? That’s what I see when I’m on campuses and talking to students, this generation especially.
(09:42):
It’s a real shift that colleges really need to deal with. And like I said earlier, I think the elite and the larger institutions were positioned better to deal with that.
Jarrett Smith (09:55):
There was already more perceived inherent value in a degree from a Princeton than the public school down the road. Correct. Yeah. And it seems like that’s just a broader sort of macro trend, the strong getting stronger that we’ve seen in a lot of different
(10:11):
Arenas. One thing as a marketer, one thing that we always talk about is sort of the value equation, like price paid versus what I get. And I think higher ed’s been on the wrong side of the price paid for quite a while now. But at least it was like, well, at least maybe I have a shot at a job or I’ve co-branded myself with an institution that’s got a great reputation and that’s going to carry some value. But it does seem to me that AI is calling that in a question and maybe not so much on a, what do I get as a student? But I think broader, what do we get as a society for students
(10:52):
Going through this process of earning a degree? And what does it mean if I can’t necessarily trust the grades that a student has? Just to throw this out there as kind of shifting gears from marketer to business owner, AI I think has had a subtle, but a really important shift to me and my calculus as a business owner, not because I think we’re going to replace everybody with AI, but a good example is we have a little form on our website that’s like a careers. Do you want to get notified if we have a job opening? And people fill that out constantly. We get lots of submissions on that. It used to be when someone wrote something into that form, one of the questions is like why? We get a lot of submissions. Why do you think you stand out? And pre – 2022, let’s call it pre – 2023, whatever somebody wrote in there, you’re like, they probably wrote that.
(11:54):
That probably is representative of their thinking. Now when I see a well written submission, I’m instantly like, did they actually write this? And is this representative of someone’s intellectual capabilities and communication abilities and written form? I’m instantly skeptical and having a nicely polished, well thought out one almost like, I don’t want to say it counts against you, but the more perfect it is, the more sort of I instinctively recoil it. Who actually produced this? So I can imagine in certain worlds where they look heavily at the pedigree of your institution and the program that you came out of, like investment banking or maybe tech companies that hire out of the Ivys and the Stanfords and whatnot. I can imagine that question is looming large. Jeff, I’m curious, what’s your take on all this, man? You appear to have thoughts.
Jeff Kallay (13:03):
It’s like any other pivot. I mean, it’s one of the many moments in humanity. Where is it going? No one knows. Everyone’s predicting it from extinction event to heaven on earth due to AI. I think Scott and I were talking about this and let me just say, I love the Purdue Gallup poll 10 years back that said, it doesn’t matter where you go to college, it matters what you do in college. And I think that’s what colleges are missing. And that aligns with, I want a job, I want skills for the workplace. And all the things you do from being a tour guide or being in a fraternity or sorority to playing intramural sports, to being a student worker, all of those that you have the faculty mentor that you’re involved in the community. Those are the things that I think matter. I think majors, I’m not going to say majors are dead, but higher ed did not have majors until late 19th century, early 20th century.
(14:19):
You went and you studied it all, math, science, reasoning, writing. And then I think in the modern age and that we got into this major thing. And I think colleges need to one, embrace AI, embrace it into the curriculum, but what’s a major matter in certain worlds now? I mean, what’s AI doing to those in that should a liberal arts college just offer a degree in critical thinking and reasoning or in human intelligence? I think that maybe it’s less about the major and really coming back to learning how to think.
Jarrett Smith (15:05):
That really kind
Jeff Kallay (15:07):
Of reason.
Jarrett Smith (15:08):
Jeff, that kind
Jeff Kallay (15:08):
Of aligns – And maybe colleges should go back to blue books and handwritten exams and these things. So just say.
Jarrett Smith (15:16):
Yeah. That kind of aligns with a little thing that I’ve been noodling on for a while, which is I think there’s an opportunity for some schools to reinvigorate liberal arts. I was on campus at a wonderful public liberal arts institution this past week. And in talking with academic leadership, they were talking about the fact that, hey, we have to acknowledge that students want to be employable. They need to come out with job ready skills and that matters. And they were proud of the fact their outcomes, like we have the outcomes, we have the receipts to back that up. They come out prepared and they get a good launch. But one of the faculty members said in liberal arts, what we are preparing students for is not the job that they’ll get right out of college, but the job that won’t even exist for 20 years and giving them that durability and those human intelligence skills that you’re talking about, Jeff, that are truly durable.
(16:14):
And so I think there’s some schools could really lean into that notion.
Jeff Kallay (16:20):
Yep. Because you have majors now that people like, okay, what’s computer science now? Everyone was told the code seven years ago and how’s that working for you? So I mean, whereas the ability to think and communicate and write –
Jarrett Smith (16:41):
I don’t think that’s going away. So here’s another hot take guys. I think that the AI job loss narrative, in my opinion, is not fully grounded in reality. So I say that – I
Jeff Kallay (16:54):
Think that’s companies curling the herd and using AI as. As
Jarrett Smith (16:58):
Cover, right. Yeah. So okay. A couple of things. I mean, it’s not that there’s nothing to it. There’s a family down the street. There’s someone off to big state university here in Florida majoring in computer science. And I saw him a few weeks ago. I was like, “How’s it going?” And he’s like, “Well, I’m having a heck of a time getting an internship.” He’s like, everybody I called, they’re like, “Hey, we’re not taking on any more interns right now. And AI is the direct assignable cause of that.” And so there’s that. That’s real. But the broader thing is, Jeff, what you’re talking about, I think companies clearly overhired during the pandemic and they’re using AI as cover to right size, get back to where they should be. I think we also have to remember that unemployment among new grads is high, but not unprecedented.
(17:57):
And that most of our economy is not growing right now. I think it’s like healthcare and then what, seven AI companies? That’s where all the growth is happening. And if it wasn’t for that, we’d be in a recession. So I think it’s like most places aren’t doing that great. So the job market is kind of reflecting that. I also, I think long term, the economics of AI as it currently stands is not sustainable. I mean, companies, even with a $200 a month subscription, that’s not covering the cost of those prompts that you’re sending into GPD or Cloud or whatever it is. And the amount of resources they have to drop into data centers and training the models is absurd. So it’s like, that’s got to come up. So this notion that I think that the cost benefit is going to change over the next couple of years as companies look about actually replacing people with AI.
(18:49):
I don’t think that’s sustainable. And then also the whole notion of we are no longer going to hire entry level workers just flat out. That’s absurd. All the boomers and older Gen X, they got to retire at some point and then are we going to turn over the company to Grok or something?
(19:13):
So it’s like somebody’s got to take this over and they better damn well sure know what they’re doing at some point. So I don’t know. That’s my lengthy long-winded rant on why I think it’s real, but maybe not as dire. There’s a little bit more to it than that.
Jeff Kallay (19:33):
I do see it as an opportunity for higher ed leadership to not just infuse AI into the curriculum, but in my book, overhaul their curriculum and offering and majors.
Jarrett Smith (19:52):
I think that’s interesting. Scott, you shared out a really good article from Substack earlier this week. And let’s see if I can find it. I can’t find it right now, but it was, if I can look back in Slack, just to give this person credit, it was The Death of the University Degree by Carl Hendrick. I think
(20:14):
Carl Hendricks Substack. Really good article. And I just thought it was interesting in the article they mentioned how there are ways that AI can be integrated in the curriculum that are really damaging to learning. Even though students feel like they are acquiring knowledge, but when you test them objectively against control groups, they’re not learning well. But then they also mentioned like, no, there is research coming out that there are ways to use it productively in the classroom. Like you try first, then use AI. And they found that actually that was very productive for students to exercise their own thinking and then use AI to help bolster their thinking. I mean, Scott, maybe this is a good question for us to kind of wrap up on. And Scott, we can start with you. What do you think is crucial for schools right now to be thinking about?
(21:07):
What are the big pieces that you think they need to put in place to rescue the value of the degree and in this uncertain world admittedly? But just like where would you think about steering the ship at this moment?
Scott Rhodes (21:22):
I think you just look at the elite schools and why they are doing well. I think that they have proved that they have rigor, which is extremely important. They have a transformal experience that’s loosely connected to career, but I think it’s connected career in some. And they have maintained a very strong signaling that they’re confident in what they’re doing. And that has been a big shift that has taken place. So I think that’s where colleges should spend their time is focusing on those areas. When I’m on campus, I’m constantly, your website’s not talking about outcomes. You’re not showing success stories. All these things are extremely important. That ROI piece going back to it and then showing rigor to the employers that, hey, our students have rigor. They can think. They can create a think and they can solve problems. And these are things that AI can’t do.
(22:23):
Those are important and where schools should be focusing.
Jarrett Smith (22:27):
Jeff, what about you? I mean, if you were recommending to an institution in light of everything we know at the moment, what do you think is important?
Jeff Kallay (22:37):
I think it goes back to the saying of AI’s not going to take your job. Someone who knows AI is going to take your job. And so I think before you begin destroying majors, as I’m saying, go ahead and do. I don’t get enough of AI in the curriculum in the classroom. So if you’re a nursing major, where’s AI in this? It’s the same way I’ve said school should have in your general core, you have English and psychology, why don’t you have business 101 in your general core? Where is AI 101 in the core? Where is AI a skillset? I don’t see any of that on college campuses.
Jarrett Smith (23:27):
And I would add to that, Jeff, I think taking about not just how to use it, but how to use it ethically and responsibility and being thoughtful about the world. Correct. To your point, I mean, I think students are looking at the world around them and they’re concerned and they don’t like everything they see even if they are using these technologies on a day-to-day basis. And higher ed is uniquely positioned to embrace that and talk about it. And that’s what we’re here to do. Yeah. I think one point I would throw in is that maybe we need to adjust what we mean by entry level. And what is it that we’re expecting a grad to actually graduate being able to do? And maybe it’s no longer just menial tasks and that sort of stuff. I think this might be an area where schools that offer co-op programs may have a real advantage in that they’re getting students as part of the curriculum exposed to real work.
(24:32):
So anyways, I think getting students exposed to real work earlier and kind of maybe hitting the ground running when they graduate with a little more on the ground experience. Well, good stuff guys. I guess our word to higher ed is not dead yet.
(24:54):
All right guys. Well, thank you.
