Just back from this year’s Collegiate Information and Visitor Services Association (CIVSA) conference, Jeff Kallay joins the show to share what he heard and what campus visit professionals across the country are really struggling with right now.
We talk about everything from declining visit volume and rising no-show rates to the challenge of rebuilding student ambassador programs and why some virtual tours just aren’t cutting it.
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Transcript
Jarrett Smith (00:01):
You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketing Lab. I’m your host, Jared Smith. Welcome to the Higher Ed Marketing Lab. I’m Jared Smith. Each episode is my job to engage with some of the brightest minds in higher education and the broader world of marketing to bring you actionable insights you can use to love your school’s marketing and enrollment performance. In this episode, I’m joined once again by campus visit expert and all around storytelling powerhouse Jeff Klay. Jeff just got back from the 2025 CIVs A Conference, which is the Collegiate Information and Visitor Services Association. For those who don’t know, and he’s here to share what he heard and what campus visit coordinators across the country are really struggling with right now. We talk about everything from declining visit volume and rising no-show rates to the challenge of rebuilding student ambassador programs and why some virtual tours just aren’t cutting it. As always, Jeff brings the insight, a few rants and a ton of practical advice. So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Jeff Kalay. Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Kallay (01:15):
Jared, it is always an honor and privilege to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Jarrett Smith (01:20):
Yeah, man. Well, there’s a reason I keep inviting you back
Jeff Kallay (01:23):
Because I’m loud and you don’t have to worry about audio levels.
Jarrett Smith (01:26):
You just got to ask the right questions and then that’s good. So you just got back from sipsa, where was that? Minneapolis,
Jeff Kallay (01:31):
Charlotte, the Queen City and it’s uptown. It’s not downtown Charlotte. We were in Uptown Charlotte.
Jarrett Smith (01:40):
Fancy.
Jeff Kallay (01:41):
Can I kind of give you a history of the organization and for everyone listening too that will help in context. So ssa, the Collegiate Information Visitor Services Association, how’s that form? Mouthful.
Jarrett Smith (01:56):
Higher ed’s so good at organization names. They’re so catchy either and
Jeff Kallay (02:00):
With me, they just roll off my tongue and people are like, what? And then there’s the whole litany of Nak Zak, that’s a whole other thing,
Jarrett Smith (02:09):
All the ax,
Jeff Kallay (02:11):
Right. So back in early nineties, a group of schools predominantly in the Mid-Atlantic and New England got together and formed this organization and they would host small conferences every year on college campuses. And so when I started campus visit consulting, started hearing about it and then went to 2009 when I was at Target X Campus visit consulting and it was hosted at Boston University and there were about 90 people and I had an honor of giving keynote speech and that was great. And then Target X became the first corporate sponsors for the 2010 conference, which was hosted in Lexington at the University of Kentucky and Transylvania University. And we sponsored a cocktail at Woodford Reserve, which is really just still in the middle of the woods. I expected something far more. But anyhow, when you got off the bus, they’re standing there with silver trays, with glasses with either Woodford neat on the rocks or with water. So everyone’s pounding while they’re on tour. And then we go up into the visit center for dinner and there was more bourbon and some of us couldn’t get off the rows of rockers on the front porch to make it to the bus.
(03:28):
So when we’re building campus visit Consulting bureau, I said, we just started telling everyone join this organization, get involved and pretty much I think have helped. And our work of championing the campus visit, this organization has grown into just a fantastic organization dedicated to the campus visit. So there’s the professional track and then it’s divided up into regions just like the Hunger Games, I like to joke. And then when our colleague, Brittany Joyce was at Furman University and was on the board of directors at cisa, she hosted the first student development institute or what we call SDI. And that is bringing your best tour guides every first week in January somewhere. And that event has also almost grown larger than the professional conference. So you have the student development track for student ambassadors and tour guides, and then you have this professional track for campus visit coordinators and directors and probably almost 800 to 900 each at each event. So you have event people putting on an event. So it is a long week. One client called it the conference with nine socials, but it’s event people meeting and gathering and talking campus visits. And so that’s kind of the context of how great this organization has grown into and has evolved into more of the enrollment side and the admission side of the campus visit and recruitment, but still a group tours and historic tours and all visitors to campus.
Jarrett Smith (05:07):
So how have you seen the conversation around visits evolve? What are the big trends that you’ve noticed? And some things that were present in the conference this year
Jeff Kallay (05:19):
Maybe
Jarrett Smith (05:19):
Were less of a thing even a few years ago. I
Jeff Kallay (05:22):
Think that the conversations this year at CSA mirrored a lot of the conversations that we just shared in our sales summer school campus visit. Webinar visits are down, virtual engagement even all the more down events may be making a little bit of a comeback. But again, the shift in the funnel that while families are still visiting in spring open houses and fall, and it really is more the first visit is happening after acceptance and after financial aid. So I think with cost of travel and time well spent, time well saved and so much online content. And the interview that you did with W Kent right on the campus, that conversation that we had with him on January’s podcast continued at cso. So I think everyone questions of how do we increase visits and let’s layer on top of this post pandemic. Everyone was saying high nohow and high cancellations or even cancellations are dropping and no show.
(06:35):
I’m just ghosting you the way I do in a post pandemic world online. So families aren’t even having the courtesy to say, I’m not going to show up. They’re just not showing up. And then just the challenge of the enrollment cliff and numbers being down. And then I think it’s do we begin to incentivize, right? Do we offer a financial scholarship if you enroll, do we give you a gas card? If we have apartments on campus, do we offer housing or hotel? What’s the barrier that’s causing this and how do we attack those barriers? So I think that there’s the logistics of parents and students that’s changing. Then I think it’s the on-campus part that was in discussion. So I’m just going to put it all out there if that’s okay.
Jarrett Smith (07:25):
I do want to talk about the virtual versus on-campus changes that we’re seeing there in the survey data that we got this year and that we’re releasing in July. There was some interesting stuff around that, but we can bookmark that and come back to it if you just want to give me the big sweeping overview.
Jeff Kallay (07:43):
Okay. What Michelle and Brittany and I have been seeing on campus of where are the students, and we’re not the only ones asking that as campus visit consultants, families are asking that and so’s that same factor of what is the fun factor. So there were a lot of questions and discussions about what are we and Ambassador Corps being gutted because of the pandemic and not coming back and students still getting their food to go hanging out in their room, not mixing and mingling on their phones or earbuds walking to and from campus. And so I think that has given a challenge of how do you build back another strong ambassador corps and how do you retain those students and how do we support those students with everyone’s just angry and surly about something. And the challenges of today’s parents, I think everyone’s trying to figure out how can we protect, train and mentor our tour guides better, but also make it a viable economic opportunity for them. So there’s a lot of conversation about how do we bring fun into the campus visit, how do we bring back fun for our ambassadors? But the bigger challenge of fun is still not coming back on campus.
Jarrett Smith (09:02):
That’s super interesting. Well, let’s dive into the building or rebuilding that Ambassador Corps. How do you think about what are the sort of pillars of what lines of attack?
Jeff Kallay (09:12):
So I think it mirrors higher ed in general. Let’s go back five years. We’re only going to shut down for two weeks. We’re only going to shut down for two months. And I think in some parts of the country that were, I think more draconian and their shutdown that shut down went longer. So now all of a sudden students just had their college ripped away and they go home and they’re having to give ad hoc virtual tours somehow on YouTube or using campus maps and sitting in information sessions and this is not what they signed up for. And so then some of their campuses came back and some of them didn’t, but if they came back, they were put in single rooms, they were getting their food to go and tour guides are out giving tours with masks. And I think that we saw a bump on campus visits after vaccinations because they were kind of like the new Disney World, you’re open, so let’s go, but you’re not going into buildings and because of this and you’re making an 18, 19-year-old police mask rules with your surly more conservative dad.
(10:24):
And so I think everyone just said, get them going virtual or back, but no one cared deep enough for me to protect those student guides and to really think about what mess are we putting them into. And we just went back to let’s try to do it the way it was before the pandemic. So then I think students are like, this is not what I signed up for. And a lot of them also then as the year progressed said, I didn’t have the traditional stories. I didn’t have the traditional experience, so I don’t have a lot of stories to tell. I was living in a single room, got my food to go, had virtual classes even though from my dorm. And so I think that was a challenge. And then you had other dining services starts offering more money, then your restaurants and retail in town offers a lot of money, is what you call the great resignation, right?
(11:22):
Great revaluation. So you’re competing against that. And I think it also just lost the fund. I mean most admissions people are gregarious or outgoing that there was a lot of energy, but then the offices didn’t come back and people were still working remote and these students lost their, we always say you should tell your faculty, your student to faculty ratio, but you should also tell your faculty and staff to student ratio. Because often, yes, my faculty are important. Staff are equally important in so many ways as that surrogate mom, dad, aunt, uncle. And so tour guides are coming back into offices where the staff is remote and where are the adults and who’s bringing back the fun. And offices are empty and parents are surly. So those are the challenges that have been facing rebuilding the ambassador core student guides.
Jarrett Smith (12:23):
Are there any areas where you see schools making progress or things starting to maybe correct and swing back a little
Jeff Kallay (12:29):
Bit And there was a lot of content at CSA because these are, I’m going to gender stereotype here. I mean CSA is heavenly populated with professional women attending. So you tend to have those, they’re that cool ant to their guides and they really do care. So there was a lot of content about training and incentivizing and caring in this rebuilding process. There were a number of sessions about that because I think that most of the attendees at SSO truly have what I call the gift of hospitality. They really truly are guest centric and they’re also very student centric. So they’re trying to fix that. Here’s what I’m going to say. It always comes back to leadership. When we have a vice president vp, em as we all call them, or VP M what they have marketing, when they really know that the campus visit is still important, that the guides are important and are going to invest in training or higher echo delta.
(13:33):
And when they also go to fight to find ways to have ambassadors be the highest paid on campus and adjust the budgets and get them the resources and invest in not just budget but invest in energy and priority man does it just trickle down. So I think it starts at the very top in the enrollment food chain when you have a vice president that sees their tour guides and ambassadors as what they are million dollar salespeople and treats them as paraprofessionals but still treats them as students and creates a culture of support. Those are the clients and those are the campuses jarret that are rebuilding strong ambassador cores, that is then having a trickle down to better campus visits.
Jarrett Smith (14:29):
Were there any sessions on replacing student ambassadors with AI or robots?
Jeff Kallay (14:35):
On my bike ride this morning I was listening to the Wall Street Journal podcast and it was about the Pope and a Vatican Summit on ai. And as an ex-Catholic, I love my Catholic clients, just lemme say that, Catholic clients, but as an ex-Catholic, there was a lot I was in agreement with, no, come on the heart. The purpose of place-based residential on campus higher education is students and students are the heart and soul. I do think we need to have conversations and that when the conversation I had with Jamie Hunt on her podcast, I think AI and technology should make it easier and better for tour guides. I think it should be their companion out there for when they get those stupid questions or to help them answer or learn or help customize. But to replace a student, you should just stay at home and go to school on your screen. As I presented in our webinar, I’m just trying to get people to use the phone with that companion photo album just to, there’s an enormous amount of don’t change it or we’re the student and we’re the star stage and screen and this is how we do it. So there’s a little apprehension to bring that phone in
Jarrett Smith (15:50):
With our conversation with Ken Barnes. We were talking about just using the data that you already have, forget ai, just use the basic data that you already have on the tour. You don’t need a fancy LLM to do that.
Jeff Kallay (16:03):
No. Same thing with the Google photo album that the companion that goes chronologically with the tour, this is not use what we have that’s free and easy and use the data, but there are still vice presidents that just say and marketing people that just enforce a rote script on ambassadors. And that’s not fun to be a scripted tour bot. So there’s that part of it too that I think leadership is this is are the talking points, this is what you need to say and don’t answer the party question honestly dodge it.
Jarrett Smith (16:38):
And then that feeds into students and parents being naturally skeptical about what am I actually hearing? How valid is this information? And it
Jeff Kallay (16:47):
Solves the intelligence of the guests who are touring campus.
Jarrett Smith (16:51):
Can we talk a little bit about virtual visit versus campus visits? So we did some survey work that is coming up soon to be released. We ask prospective students to rank what information do they most want in the admissions section of a website. And some of those items were related to campus visit in-person campus visits particularly for our traditional residential students, far and away were the thing that students were looking for and not very much on virtual visits. So I just think it’s interesting, we have these fairly expensive, pretty sophisticated, ubiquitous virtual visit tools and it seems to be that for the vast majority of students, it’s not what they’re really looking for. Thoughts.
Jeff Kallay (17:42):
Okay, one, I am not a virtual visit expert, right? I am that analog on campus in person. So let’s do a quick history of virtual visits. It was predominantly owned by one firm you visit and it was a set it and forget it and it was set for international students because let’s just face it predominantly white middle class, upper middle class families could pay to go visit. They could take time from work, they could take time and have the money and go on campus tours. So it also used to be good luck finding a virtual visit on someone’s webpage. So what happens is simultaneously within a month of each other, mine and Trent Gilbert’s old firm gets acquired by RNL and then a month later you visit gets acquired by EAB. And what does private equity do? They got it right. So then a few months later the pandemic comes along and everyone is caught literally with their pants down in a way.
(18:49):
And everyone’s panicking including, and I’m just going to say RNL because they didn’t have a solution. So I’m vetting all of ’em to create partnerships. But the problem is it campuses were shut down and beginning to look like zombie apocalypse could be filmed there because we didn’t have the staff, we didn’t have the students stuff. I mean, when I came back around 21 doing tours, I was like, you should not do tours because your campus looks like crap. So then everyone invades into this space and it is predominantly, I’m just going to say this white tech bro, Silicon Valley mindset and they’ve never worked on a campus tour. They’ve never worked on a campus, but because they’re disruptors and took Caitlyn on tours and her Tesla and didn’t have a good experience, they’re going to make it better. This is to me, the problem. They have programmed in a bias into this thing that is made for rich white kids and the students that really need virtual tours, jart are students that are first generation don’t have the funds to go on tours and yet the algorithm, the technology is not filtering that mirror to them.
(20:04):
So I think you have a disconnect. There were six virtual tour companies at the SIPSA exhibit space and me and Echo Delta being the one on person. So they were there. So you had all these firms and I talked to them, I vetted their stuff out. But why are the numbers why they are, and I’m just going to say this and I’m probably going to make some people I know and colleagues, there was a bias built into this thing. There is hubris built into this thing and they all think they know better when when’s the last time they went on a campus store. That’s my rant.
Jarrett Smith (20:38):
Yeah. When you say there’s a bias or there’s hubris, is there anything you can point to like the sale? Here’s an example of that.
Jeff Kallay (20:44):
I think it still brings nomenclature and verbiage that a first generation student as myself that I was, what the heck is a burser, right? I think it still goes on these linear tours that are just filled with hype and bias and I don’t think are authentic.
Jarrett Smith (21:07):
Part of what you’re talking about is that sort of thing that we see on higher ed websites all the time, which is institutional centricity. Let me talk to you from the perspective of higher ed using the terminology and sort of mental models that someone inside higher ed would know because we do this all day
Jeff Kallay (21:22):
Long. So then that’s my point. So then the audience that truly needs it is not getting to me content that and then the audience that the family’s with means they’re going to say, we’re just going to get it in the car, we’re going to fly to campus. So why are we going to spend our time on this? Because they’re still going to think it is. But then that goes back, I think they still think it’s scripted and hyperbole that it’s not real.
Jarrett Smith (21:51):
Jeff, if you were giving advice to someone who is in charge of the campus visit program today, if you had two or three core pieces of advice for leveling up that visit program, what do you find yourself saying on repeat? What’s your greatest hits these days?
Jeff Kallay (22:10):
One, I would say if you’re not a member of csa, join and become active. Right? Here’s the great thing about csa. It is a collaborative sharing professional organization. Some others hold things tight, close to the chest and don’t share. But again, I think because these are people that have the gift of hospitality, these people care about the feelings of their guests in that it is a very sharing organization. They have a really strong membership messaging board. But I always tell my clients, join that organization. Get involved on the local level. Because many times campus visit coordinators can be on an island on their campus, even within their own admissions or marketing team. And I say, this is where your people are, might not actually approve of me saying this. If it comes down to budget, I’ll tell vice president, send your tour guides to the SDI before you send your professional staff.
(23:11):
So I think that this is why I’m a fan of this organization. This is why we’ve been sponsors of it. So get involved, do your professional development, find your peers, because they’re going to help answer a lot of the questions that I think you just asked too. Then I would say, let’s just take it back to basics and put on the lens of being a prospective family and go and audit your visit experience from registration to parking to plumbing, and go through the eyes of a prospective family. And then I would say sit down and brainstorm with your tour guides and ambassadors because they are, and I hate to use this word on the front lines of it, getting all the questions, knowing when families are bored and break apart that script and then invest in your guide. So I think it is just you really need to have a measurement of where you’re at and then ask what are the enrollment goals to your vice president?
(24:11):
And then that’s the filter of which your campus visit needs to be filtered through. What is this doing for our enrollment goals? How is the route supporting our enrollment goals? We want more full pay when we want more out of state. Okay, well then you better get strategic in your route. So the end game is to make the visit strategic to support your enrollment goals, but it all comes down to the basics. What we’ve been preaching forever, the three Ps, parking, plumbing in place. When the guests show up, how are they going to get to your place? What does that place look like? Does it look like a doctor’s office? And the very first question is, where are your restrooms? And you’re being judged on those restrooms at the very start. So the basic, don’t matter.
Jarrett Smith (24:54):
Jeff, as always, super fun talking with you. Appreciate you.
Jeff Kallay (24:58):
I always enjoy the practical, but the intellectual and intelligent dialogue with you. You’re a great host. Thank you.
Jarrett Smith (25:07):
Thank you. And you’re an economist reader, so I take that as a real compliment. Thank you, Jeff. The higher Ed marketing lab is produced by Echo Delta, a full service enrollment marketing agency for colleges and universities of all sizes. To see some of the work we’ve done and how we’ve helped schools just like yours, visit echo delta.co. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave review on Apple Podcasts. And as always, if you have a comment, question, suggestion, or episode idea, feel free to drop us a line at podcast@echodelta.co.
